R
RICHIE2012
Contrarian - Your dissertation has been noted with interest on my part but I would be interested to know if you have lived through a terrorist war or are your thoughts and arguments academic in nature?
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C
Contrarian
What dissertation is this RICHIE2012?
R
RICHIE2012
The problem we face in this country (and which various western democracies have already faced) is that we as a people are too accommodating of other cultures and are prone to believing that all others espouse our ideals and way of life.
It is fine to raise the argument that the hippies, irish, poms etc etc did not overwhelm us so why should the people of islam or the refugees reaching our shores etc do so.
The issues we now face are fundamentally far bigger than just misunderstanding other races and cultures. On top of that this world now carries 7 billion people and counting and the need for vast numbers to relocate because of political pressure is huge and will not abate.
The waves of immigration to Australia, because of our colonial history and the "White Australia" policy meant that the bulk of our earlier immigrants were in broad terms sui generis to our existing population and while they may not have been English speaking they ultimately fitted in. The Italians, Greeks etc etc.
The problem we now face and which is already part of the fabric of life in England and France, for example, is that the new waves of immigration are of people who do not necessarily share a commonality of background with our existing society in a belief in western democracy and the western rule of law.
While I have no doubt that given a lot of time, patience and resources the inflow could be schooled in our way of life, shear pressure of numbers will not allow for the process to work without major changes to the existing fabric.
We are a very soft western type country. Our people have not been exposed to utter and senseless violence or attitudes of suppression whether that is religious, sexual or gender based. Our people know nothing of war, terrorism or violence and love to believe in the true Aussie spirit that every one is equal and shares the same beliefs etc.
The problem is that across the world there are ideologies that don't give a fig for our values.
The author of Tania's initial article is right and our achilles heel is our sense of goodwill and fairness to all.
As to MAK's comments, I agree. I know a number of Muslim people and find them great. But most of these people have been here a while and have taken the time to integrate and enjoy, just as I do, the wonderful opportunities that Australia has to offer.
Food for thought - or the ramblings of an older nutter - I leave it to you to decide.
And as a postcript - I have lived through a terrorist war where I saw with my own eyes the devastation caused by people with a different ideology (not Muslim in this instance). Cutting off a young woman's nipples or nose to "teach" villagers that they should oppose the government, blowing up schools, pubs and such - I promise you the list goes on. And even in the case of ordinary criminals in that third world environment, things like the pushing of a sharpened bicycle spoke into the lower spine of a person on a train so that his wallet can be taken without protest, were all in a days work etc.
Aussies need to know and respect their freedom but that means they also need to protect it carefully or it will be lost.
It is fine to raise the argument that the hippies, irish, poms etc etc did not overwhelm us so why should the people of islam or the refugees reaching our shores etc do so.
The issues we now face are fundamentally far bigger than just misunderstanding other races and cultures. On top of that this world now carries 7 billion people and counting and the need for vast numbers to relocate because of political pressure is huge and will not abate.
The waves of immigration to Australia, because of our colonial history and the "White Australia" policy meant that the bulk of our earlier immigrants were in broad terms sui generis to our existing population and while they may not have been English speaking they ultimately fitted in. The Italians, Greeks etc etc.
The problem we now face and which is already part of the fabric of life in England and France, for example, is that the new waves of immigration are of people who do not necessarily share a commonality of background with our existing society in a belief in western democracy and the western rule of law.
While I have no doubt that given a lot of time, patience and resources the inflow could be schooled in our way of life, shear pressure of numbers will not allow for the process to work without major changes to the existing fabric.
We are a very soft western type country. Our people have not been exposed to utter and senseless violence or attitudes of suppression whether that is religious, sexual or gender based. Our people know nothing of war, terrorism or violence and love to believe in the true Aussie spirit that every one is equal and shares the same beliefs etc.
The problem is that across the world there are ideologies that don't give a fig for our values.
The author of Tania's initial article is right and our achilles heel is our sense of goodwill and fairness to all.
As to MAK's comments, I agree. I know a number of Muslim people and find them great. But most of these people have been here a while and have taken the time to integrate and enjoy, just as I do, the wonderful opportunities that Australia has to offer.
Food for thought - or the ramblings of an older nutter - I leave it to you to decide.
And as a postcript - I have lived through a terrorist war where I saw with my own eyes the devastation caused by people with a different ideology (not Muslim in this instance). Cutting off a young woman's nipples or nose to "teach" villagers that they should oppose the government, blowing up schools, pubs and such - I promise you the list goes on. And even in the case of ordinary criminals in that third world environment, things like the pushing of a sharpened bicycle spoke into the lower spine of a person on a train so that his wallet can be taken without protest, were all in a days work etc.
Aussies need to know and respect their freedom but that means they also need to protect it carefully or it will be lost.
C
Contrarian
Richie, these "arguments" have been used many times by racists and fascists. You conveniently use a broad brush, based largely on assumption, to paint an ugly picture. As you say; the earlier migrants ultimately fit in.
And yet, you can't seem to say that other migrants can't fit in ultimately? In the 80s people said that of the Vietnamese - many of whom fit in and work in and sound more Aussie than white Australians do sometimes. Anh Do being a case in point. If you say, "we" are too accommodating and feel they shouldn't be welcome, then that welll bring exactly the wars that you don't want.
I also wonder if you've confused the issues here - are you referring to the fanatical Muslims or are you now deciding that on that basis along with your bias that therefore ALL muslims shouldn't be allowed to migrate to Australia? And with your "sui generis" belief what would you do with white Muslims then or the colour of their skin now makes them acceptable. You describe heinous incidents - there were many horrific acts committed by WHITE South Africans who are now in Australia in huge numbers.
It seems alright for you that the postwar Europeans who were discriminated and resented immensely "ultimately fitted (sic)" in but that Muslims aren't allowed to "ultimately" fit in. Are you a victim of sheer blind racism here?
I certainly am unsure what you mean by "our values". Are these the ones the same as the Aussies in the video?
[video=youtube;hp6J6PF47CM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp6J6PF47CM[/video]
And yet, you can't seem to say that other migrants can't fit in ultimately? In the 80s people said that of the Vietnamese - many of whom fit in and work in and sound more Aussie than white Australians do sometimes. Anh Do being a case in point. If you say, "we" are too accommodating and feel they shouldn't be welcome, then that welll bring exactly the wars that you don't want.
I also wonder if you've confused the issues here - are you referring to the fanatical Muslims or are you now deciding that on that basis along with your bias that therefore ALL muslims shouldn't be allowed to migrate to Australia? And with your "sui generis" belief what would you do with white Muslims then or the colour of their skin now makes them acceptable. You describe heinous incidents - there were many horrific acts committed by WHITE South Africans who are now in Australia in huge numbers.
It seems alright for you that the postwar Europeans who were discriminated and resented immensely "ultimately fitted (sic)" in but that Muslims aren't allowed to "ultimately" fit in. Are you a victim of sheer blind racism here?
I certainly am unsure what you mean by "our values". Are these the ones the same as the Aussies in the video?
[video=youtube;hp6J6PF47CM]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hp6J6PF47CM[/video]
C
Contrarian
[video=youtube;y-P2Xxt1KtY]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y-P2Xxt1KtY[/video]
C
Contrarian
More than a year ago, these people protested like crazy.
Link is broken so has been taken down
But this year, the Northam Detention Centre will be one year old - look at the bloodshed in Northam today (NOT)
Link is broken so has been taken down
But this year, the Northam Detention Centre will be one year old - look at the bloodshed in Northam today (NOT)
Last edited by a moderator:
C
Contrarian
Then again, I guess when all us white people have been raping, breaking into houses, stealing, getting drunk and killing I can understand what Richie's going on about us not fitting in.
We deserve to be sent back where we came from. We shouldn't have been allowed into Australia - Richie's right.
We deserve to be sent back where we came from. We shouldn't have been allowed into Australia - Richie's right.
R
RICHIE2012
Contrarian
My mate - each to his own.
But take note, when I consider and comment on your words, I don't take cheap shots, use emotive terms or empty sarcasm to denigrate your views.
I am neither a racist nor a fascist.
As I have said, in this instance I talk from lengthy personal experience, the question is do you?
:violent5:
My mate - each to his own.
But take note, when I consider and comment on your words, I don't take cheap shots, use emotive terms or empty sarcasm to denigrate your views.
I am neither a racist nor a fascist.
As I have said, in this instance I talk from lengthy personal experience, the question is do you?
:violent5:
C
Contrarian
Yes I do.
Secondly, you don't take cheap shots, emotive terms or empty sarcasm or denigrate views? Of course you don't.
:violent1: Finally, I somehow doubt I'm your mate.
Secondly, you don't take cheap shots, emotive terms or empty sarcasm or denigrate views? Of course you don't.
:violent1: Finally, I somehow doubt I'm your mate.
R
RICHIE2012
Yes, Contrarian, on reflection I must agree with you, we are not mates, more like brothers - Lol:boxing:
Have a good day mate ................. sorry sorry, I meant buddy.:-X
Have a good day mate ................. sorry sorry, I meant buddy.:-X
C
colzilla
empty sarcasm
.....................................................................................................................................................................................Did you call?
C
Contrarian
I case my rest. He talks from lengthy personal experience.But take note, when I consider and comment on your words, I don't take cheap shots, use emotive terms or empty sarcasm to denigrate your views.
I am neither a racist nor a fascist.
C
colzilla
Yes I do.
Secondly, you don't take cheap shots, emotive terms or empty sarcasm or denigrate views? Of course you don't.
:violent1: Finally, I somehow doubt I'm your mate.
.............................................82?
F
Farm Boy
Remember also Tania that the White Australia policy has been abandoned - yet the chaos and destruction hasn't happened. And then when the Snowy River project came about and a whole lot of Europeans came in and nothing disastrous has happened yet. The disdain for Poms is evident but nothing bad's happened yet.
I dread to think what a cultural wasteland Australia would be if not for immigration.
I have no problem with Halal branded food in fact have supplied this market , but it takes more than two years residence and reciting a Oath of Allegiance to make a Ausey , in my option you have to want to not because its easy living here.
No problems just a few hiccups?
The sectarian tensions underlying the conflict in Syria have erupted in Australia, with acts of violence, harassment and threats committed by both sides.
In the past few months, the uprising against the regime of president Bashar al-Assad has escalated into a full-blown civil war which has claimed around 80,000 lives.
A United Nations investigative team has of the conflict.
But while Syria may be 14,000 kilometres away, last week the ABC's .
Now the hostilities have spilled over into communities here as well.
Australian nurse Sonya Abbas, a Sunni Muslim, has travelled to Syria twice. She says she is planning to return again to help in the humanitarian effort.
"I'm not a political person. What made me talk is because it's hurting me inside. It's what I see I have to say," she said.
Ms Abbas filmed what she saw during her last visit in March, documenting the civilian casualties
"I was hands-on in medical procedures, I basically helped in surgeries, I trained nursing staff."
Her husband Khalil Soubjaki spent time with the rebel Free Syria Army.
"I understand now that I've gone easy because I could've been killed that many times, me and my husband, while we were there as well, so we were lucky to come back alive," Ms Abbas said.
Her brother Roger was not so lucky. A champion kickboxer, Mr Abbas is one of four Australians recently killed in Syria.
He was gunned down in the province of Aleppo in October.
A martyr website says he was fighting with the Al Qaeda-backed rebel group Jabhat al Nusra, but Ms Abbas wants her brother to be remembered as a humanitarian.
"Why is it all about Australians fighting in Syria? Why can't you see the fact that people are helping? Why?
"Anyone that goes to help is being accused of being a terrorist. This is what gets me angry."
The Abbas family's support for the rebel Free Syria Army has made them targets of Assad supporters at home.
Mr Soubjaki says he has six security cameras installed at his home.
"They were threatening me and calling me every second day, sometimes every three hours, two hours," he said.
"They say they want to kill me, shoot me, they wanna rape my wife, they wanna my daughter."
He says letters were also left on his SUV, signed by "the men of Assad".
Mr Soubjaki's caryard in Melbourne was also firebombed last year.
Both sides involved in Sydney violence
The sectarian violence has also erupted in Sydney and both sides are involved.
Jamal Daoud, a high-profile community leader in western Sydney, says the situation is becoming "very vicious".
Although he is a Sunni Muslim, because of his opposition to removing the Syrian regime by force, Mr Daoud says extremists at home view him with the same hatred they have for Shiites and Alawites.
He received the following message on his mobile phone:
Mr Daoud believes the trouble is coming from a small minority group who support the Jabhat al Nusra in Syria.
"This is the source of the violence in Sydney, the Jabhat al Nusra supporters," he said.
"The last two years they have flourished in western Sydney, they have flourished. We have seen a lot of new bookstores, masallahs and other centres."
One of these new centres is the Al Risalah bookstore in Bankstown, which over the past year has gained a reputation for being one of the most extreme Islamic centres in the country.
Al Risalah supporters played a prominent role in last year's protests in Sydney's CBD, which deteriorated into rioting against a film that mocked the Prophet Mohammed.
"We noticed after they created this bookstore, a lot of trouble started in Bankstown," Mr Dahoud said.
"For the last one-and-a-half years there was a lot of trouble... like extortion and threatening, bullying, intimidation.
"There is attacks on many Shiite businesses in that area."
The owner of a juice bar in Bankstown says he was forced to sell his business in June last year after being intimidated and assaulted by a group of men who reportedly emerged from the Al Risalah bookstore, which is located directly across the road.
Al Risalah declined 7.30's requests for an interview. A spokesman said he had no knowledge of the attack on the juice bar or any extortions or threats.
Business owners too afraid to speak out
More than 20 businesses in western Sydney have been targeted in the past year.