Rochelle's Political Thread

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

One thing that irks me is the proposal of giving 25% of the carbon tax to countries
who have no interest in pollution reduction
And how many people say we must act Then take their annual holiday abroad One flight dumps that much carbon and so your personal carbon footprint is probably outweighed all the reductions you have tried an business has implemented.

And Alecia I think you will find New Zealands carbon emmission is per capita A city like Jakarta probably has more pollution than your your whole beautiful country just by car exhaust alone

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

Re: Carbon tax

Yeah, Happy2, India is number 2 or 3 on the list. No argument there.

In terms of giving a share of the tax to countries who have no interest in pollution reduction, sorry, that is simply untrue. Countries like India and China and other third world countries have been allowed some grace from carbon emission reduction schemes so that they can grow in their economic development, which is perfectly fair. The rest of us like NZ and Ozzie and America have been allowed to grow economically without much regard for carbon emissions for years, so I don't see why anyone would have an issue with that. They will have to play the game when their time comes, or be subject to trade sanctions.

 

[Hardwood]

Re: Carbon tax

Alecia, you write......I am in favor of carbon tax. New Zealand must also reduce its carbon emissions. We are now the fourth largest emitter.

Where do you get this stuff from???

According to Wikipedia, New Zealand ranks 72nd in the List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions - See List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And New Zealand only ranks 51st in the List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita
See List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

C'mon - if you are going to submit a "factual" post - at least try to get the facts correct!

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

Re: Carbon tax

Alecia, you write......I am in favor of carbon tax. New Zealand must also reduce its carbon emissions. We are now the fourth largest emitter.

Where do you get this stuff from???

According to Wikipedia, New Zealand ranks 72nd in the List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions - See List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

And New Zealand only ranks 51st in the List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita
See List of countries by carbon dioxide emissions per capita - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

C'mon - if you are going to submit a "factual" post - at least try to get the facts correct!

I got them from GreenPeace, and as well as that, I studied Global Environmental Politics last year in the B semester. We are not allowed to quote from Wikipedia at university as it is not considered by academics to be verified.

 

[Hardwood]

Re: Carbon tax

Alecia, you state that .....I got them from GreenPeace, and as well as that, I studied Global Environmental Politics last year in the B semester. We are not allowed to quote from Wikipedia at university as it is not considered by academics to be verified.

Care to give a reference for your "facts"?? I have trawled through the Greenpeace website and I can't find any mention of your "facts"

Also, out of curiosity, which university is it that doesn't allow you to quote from Wikipedia???

The university of "make believe"" ....... lol :laughing4:laughing4

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

Re: Carbon tax

Alecia, you state that .....I got them from GreenPeace, and as well as that, I studied Global Environmental Politics last year in the B semester. We are not allowed to quote from Wikipedia at university as it is not considered by academics to be verified.

Care to give a reference for your "facts"?? I have trawled through the Greenpeace website and I can't find any mention of your "facts"

Also, out of curiosity, which university is it that doesn't allow you to quote from Wikipedia???

The university of "make believe"" ....... lol :laughing4:laughing4

When Green Peace came to the door late last year, they were talking about NZ's farming industry and the fact that we had become the world's fourth largest carbon emitter, largely due to the farming industry. I was studying at the University of Waikato doing my second degree at the time, which was in October last year, and I checked that statement from GreenPeace with my lecturer at the time, who verified it. That statistic was also quoted by the Green Party leader in NZ who did one of our lectures. I don't know why you can't find it on the GreenPeace website, maybe stop stalking me on here and look properly. And FYI, no university considers Wikipedia verifiable, and if you look with your looking eyes, Hardwood, Wikipedia even admits that it has incomplete references. So, get off my case.

 

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

May I say as a farmer I would be very disapponted if NZ farmers were in the top 10 polluters Unless the greenpeace people are using dubious things like guesstimating livestock methane production I just cant see how they can be
But I would agree that wikipedia is of dubious value if you need accurate data

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

Re: Carbon tax

May I say as a farmer I would be very disapponted if NZ farmers were in the top 10 polluters Unless the greenpeace people are using dubious things like guesstimating livestock methane production I just cant see how they can be
But I would agree that wikipedia is of dubious value if you need accurate data

Most of us here ARE very disappointed with the farmers over here for precisely that reason, the farmers over here have fucked this country. They have indiscriminately used all sorts of dangerous chemicals (amongst other things) often which have been banned in other countries, including Australia. And their attitudes have been arrogant about it, because the most successful farmers over here are basically the rich, I am happy to admit that NZ would be nothing without its farming industry, but they have gotten far too full of themselves, and not open (as a whole) to greener ways of doing things. I can easily see how they would be amongst the top ten emitters, easily. I have no comment to make on Australian farmers, I know nothing about the Australian farming industry. We have already known that our farmers carbon emissions were high, it is easy to see if you live over here. So I wasn't that surprised when GreenPeace told me that. And yeah, Wikepedia, what a joke.

 

[Hardwood]

Re: Carbon tax

Fair comment Happy2.

I should have added that the Wiki data was taken from the following External links.

OECD Stats Extracts - Detailed OECD country level environment statistics
Environment statistics by country - Detailed country level environment statistics by bunseki.info
World Per Capita Carbon Dioxide Emissions - exhaustive and up to date list of statistic by country from Energy Information Administration (spreadsheet format)
World Per Capita Carbon Footprint - exhaustive and up to date list of carbon footprint distributed on countries Norwegian University of Science and Technology
World Map and Chart of CO2 Emission- metric tons per capita by lebanese-economy-forum, World Bank data

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

One thing that irks me is the proposal of giving 25% of the carbon tax to countries who have no interest in pollution reduction

As I mentioned beforehand, the Carbon Tax, in itself, is only a precursor to the implentation of the ETS. At the core of the ETS will be the ability for companies AND countries to trade carbon credits, hence the term "Cap and Trade". As Alecia said, the developing countries will need some "grace period" in order to transition into the ETS. In fact, India has already implemented a Carbon Tax.

And how many people say we must act Then take their annual holiday abroad One flight dumps that much carbon and so your personal carbon footprint is probably outweighed all the reductions you have tried an business has implemented.

If you look at a flight itself then, yeah, the carbon emmissions can be considered huge. However, when you look at this from a per passenger view, it is in some cases no worse than a person driving a car. However, there are a number of factors here that ned to be considered but there are websites around that can give you a fairly good comparison as to whether travel by car, plane & train is better. It must be noted that any conclusion is subject to the mode of transport, the number of passengers, the distances to be travelled etc etc.

Fudd

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

...well said, Chook.

Fudd

 

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

If you look at a flight itself then, yeah, the carbon emmissions can be considered huge. However, when you look at this from a per passenger view, it is in some cases no worse than a person driving a car. However, there are a number of factors here that ned to be considered but there are websites around that can give you a fairly good comparison as to whether travel by car, plane & train is better. It must be noted that any conclusion is subject to the mode of transport, the number of passengers, the distances to be travelled etc etc.

Fudd [/QUOTE]

I know I haven't looked at the whole deal in depth and to be honest I like many wont in the future either I guess its such a emotive thing for many.

I know that the practices on the land have improved exponentially not
because of a concern for the planet but efficiency and the hip pocket. I guess if the Tax followed by ETS can do this fairly it may win people over

And as long as we dont fall in to the easy route of thinking it will be fine because the government will look after us., For we probably now agree man has made a huge input to the change in climate. But there must also be
some thought into whether some of it is cyclical as the planet has been through many changes long before we got here and will still warm up and cool down when we have left

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

...And as long as we dont fall in to the easy route of thinking it will be fine because the government will look after us.

....absolutely spot on H2!!!!! We need to ensure that we "keep the bastards" honest regardless of what side of politics they're from.

 

[Hardwood]

Re: Carbon tax

Fudd - you are spot on when you say...We need to ensure that we "keep the bastards" honest

The same should be said about those people that posts "facts" which are simply made up or untrue.

I think the vast majority of quotes and posts in this particular thread have been informative and well thought out.
Unfortunately, there are a couple of posts that are emotive meaningless drivel posted my empty headed intellectually impaired individuals.

 

[Farm Boy]

Re: Carbon tax

I got them from GreenPeace, and as well as that, I studied Global Environmental Politics last year in the B semester. We are not allowed to quote from Wikipedia at university as it is not considered by academics to be verified.

Wikipedia alto handy is self editing so sometimes quite wrong for a while .

Greenpeace are just one more political movement so suet your self as to how much of there dogma is true.

and by the way Alecia* I still love you even when we fight**


* cyberland love

** cyberland fighing

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

...Unfortunately, there are a couple of posts that are emotive meaningless drivel posted my empty headed intellectually impaired individuals.

...couldn't agree with you more Hardwood.

Fudd

 

[wcmonger]

Re: Carbon tax

Carbon Tax - govt rort - will be a total fuck up and destroy economy

NBN - As above

Mining Tax - as above

Pink Bats - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

Building Education Revolution - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

K Rudd - total DUD !!!!!!!!!
Juliar Gillard - as above x 10 and has a head that would make a train take a dirt track.
Labour Government - Look up the word incompetent in the dictionary and it will say "Labour Party"
Labour Voters - Losers!!!

 

[Hardwood]

Re: Carbon tax

wcmonger - you wrote.........

Juliar Gillard - as above x 10 and has a head that would make a train take a dirt track.

Mate - I haven't heard that one before - Brilliant - Pure Gold :laughing4

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

Carbon Tax - govt rort - will be a total fuck up and destroy economy

NBN - As above

Mining Tax - as above

Pink Bats - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

Building Education Revolution - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

K Rudd - total DUD !!!!!!!!!
Juliar Gillard - as above x 10 and has a head that would make a train take a dirt track.
Labour Government - Look up the word incompetent in the dictionary and it will say "Labour Party"
Labour Voters - Losers!!!

....what a pity you have to resort to this dribble in order to communicate your passion for the liberal party...tsk...tsk...tsk!!

 

[wcmonger]

Re: Carbon tax

....what a pity you have to resort to this dribble in order to communicate your passion for the liberal party...tsk...tsk...tsk!!

ANY party as long as not Greens or Labour!!!

Lets imagine Juliar as CEO of BHP Billiton & Wayne Swann as CFO. Would have been shareholder revolt & they would have been pitched out WITH K Rudd in a total management cleanout before last election!!!

And yes I am passionate Liberal Supporter & I assume your "tsk...tsk...tsk" is a reference to your being one of the losers who voted for Juliar & K Rudd - Right Fudd!!!

Never mind Fudd, the pain will be over soon. Gillard & Labour will go down in flames as the biggest failures of all time!!!

Hey Fudd I bet your favourite TV show is Kath & Kim!

:laughing4:laughing4:laughing4

 

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

You know I consider myself fairly conservative though I have never slavishly followed one particular party
But we seem to have got out of the GFC fairly unscathed with a labor govt in control Though I personally disliked Rudd he and his team seemed to do allright compared to many other developed nations

 

[BigBlackCock]

Re: Carbon tax

I find comments about Kevin Rudd and the resources tax laughable. After all their annual reports came out, it appeared that the mining companies could have well and truly afforded the 40% tax and paid it and still kept more than alive.

Greed begets greed begets immense stupidity.

And in 65 years when they reckon all the mineral resources run out, Australia will have no money to pay for essential services or for training and reskilling... that resources tax could have been a better future for many Australians.

It takes brave Australian leaders to make brave decisions. Hewson, Fraser, Keating, Whitlam spring to mind. Hawke was mediocre as a parliamentary leader, inspiring as a labour leader (as opposed to labor). As was Downer. As is Abbott. Abbott is such an intellectual lightweight, he couldn't go two rounds with a revolving door. Gives Rhodes Scholars a bad name. Howard? Akin to a village idiot.

 

[whilom]

Re: Carbon tax

Not taking sides or having a go at anyone so be nice, and lay off the Fox.
She has been known to take revenge by cutting holes in your toilet paper so your finger goes through.

I seem to be missing something with this high carbon emissions from farmers.
Farmers use diesel powered machinery and I was under the impression that diesel did not produce a carbon output. (that’s why you can’t gas yourself with a diesel vehicle).

I thought that growing green things actually removed carbon from the air and replaced it with Oxygen.

I guess that some animals give off Methane gas but where does that fit in with carbon production.

I have been on a few farms and I just can not figure out where all the carbon would come from.

 

[Fudd]

Re: Carbon tax

...And yes I am passionate Liberal Supporter & I assume your "tsk...tsk...tsk" is a reference to your being one of the losers who voted for Juliar & K Rudd - Right Fudd!!!

....no, that was aimed at pointing out that if you were a rationally minded person, you could have argued your point in a repectful and intellectual manner. Yet you persist in denegrading any person who doesn't conform to your way of thinking. Over the years, if you had bothered to study political history, you would have seen that both the Labor & Liberal parties have stuffed things up. No matter, it is quite obvious that you are not the type of person with whom one can discuss matters logically. Goodbye!

 

[Alecia the Foxx]

Re: Carbon tax

Carbon Tax - govt rort - will be a total fuck up and destroy economy

NBN - As above

Mining Tax - as above

Pink Bats - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

Building Education Revolution - govt rort - WAS a total fuck up

K Rudd - total DUD !!!!!!!!!
Juliar Gillard - as above x 10 and has a head that would make a train take a dirt track.
Labour Government - Look up the word incompetent in the dictionary and it will say "Labour Party"
Labour Voters - Losers!!!

Yeah, lets forego the carbon tax so that we don't fuck up the economy, let's just destroy the world for the sake of not paying the tax. Then there won't be any people or industry to pay the tax, we will all be dead. Yeah, good one. :

 

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

You are correct whilom with your belief that farming is a low carbon producer. The higher outputs of carbon were generally finished in the 80's in WA anyway No more open slather on clearing and a finish of the practice of burn offs prior to seeding etc.
I think Alecia's view of farming is more regarding the pollution of soil and maybe water by the use of noxious chemicals in NZ
If I am wrong I am sure my colleague Farmboy will let me/you know

 

[Farm Boy]

Re: Carbon tax

Foxy is OK and a smart girl .

Agriculture is responsible for an estimated 14 percent of the world's greenhouse gases. A significant portion of these emissions come from methane, which, in terms of its contribution to global warming, is 23 times more powerful than carbon dioxide. The U.S. Food and Agriculture Organization says that agricultural methane output could increase by 60 percent by 2030 [Source: Times Online]. The world's 1.5 billion cows and billions of other grazing animals emit dozens of polluting gases, including lots of methane. Two-thirds of all ammonia comes from cows.

 

[Happy2]

Re: Carbon tax

Farmboy is methane still a greenhouse gas after ignition. If not we could pay some-one to walk behind the livestock with a lighter

 

[chook]

Re: Carbon tax

You know I consider myself fairly conservative though I have never slavishly followed one particular party
But we seem to have got out of the GFC fairly unscathed with a labor govt in control Though I personally disliked Rudd he and his team seemed to do allright compared to many other developed nations

Trouble is, people like wcmonger find these facts inconvenient. Australia's economy today (2011) is performing the best it has ever had, GDP per capita is the highest it has ever been and is the envy of the world - even though that would probably be the case whichever party is in power.

Wcmonger, don't you think you are embarrasing yourself? Do you really think workchoices, expansion of middle class welfare, pissing up Australia's mining tax revenue against the wall to get re-elected etc of the previous government was good policy? Give me the NBN over this any day! Like the current government they were luck Australia is in a globak purple patch otherewise Howard Govt's economic performance would have been little better than Fraser in 1982 (remember how the Liberal party did actually fuck the economy, unlike your assertion about the current government?). The previous government (Howard) was Australia's highest taxing government (% of GDP - see ABS stats) and basically the whole mob were asleep at the wheel. So there, the facts don't support anything you say. Are you an unhappy person more generally to be drivelling such hate crap?

Perhaps mate you are posting on the wrong site. Try liberalparty.org or one of the many politics blog sites - though with the latter I suspect even the conservative posters wouldn't countenance your ignorant rants.

 

[Farm Boy]

Re: Carbon tax

Maybe a pilot light-will work h2 but the big problem is mostly at the other end .


Cows emit a massive amount of methane through belching, with a lesser amount through flatulence. Statistics vary regarding how much methane the average dairy cow expels. Some experts say 100 liters to 200 liters a day (or about 26 gallons to about 53 gallons), while others say it's up to 500 liters (about 132 gallons) a day. In any case, that's a lot of methane, an amount comparable to the pollution produced by a car in a day.