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Poor people have only themselves to blame.

  • Thread starter Thread starter Mary Anne PA
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Mary Anne PA

Im staying in a village right now, where to have electricity and running water is a luxury, and if you have a fridge or TV the neighbours will come to share.

So should these people move to a bigger city with more employment and schools and therefore 'get rich'?

They dont consider themselves poor, by the way.

And in developed countries like Australia, is a persons situation their own responsibility?
 
Certainly Australia offers more 'opportunities' for people to grasp, than do some less industrialised countries.... and yes, it is the responsibility of each individual to make the best of his her life for his/her self.

Unfortunately not every one is able to, for various reasons, such as health, education, socio economic position, location, desire, etc, etc.

Some folk are comfortable and often VERY happy living on a low budget, whilst others complain if they don't have the newest, biggest and best of everything.

For me, I respect any individual who helps themselves, no matter how small that personal achievement maybe.... what I don't like is those who have almost everything complaining that they want more.... So when it comes to giving someone a hand up... I will help out the underdog every time.
 
Whoever you are and wherever you live it is your own responsibility to look out for yourself and your family the best way you can. If you are happy with your lot where you are that puts you ahead of a lot of more wealthy people in "better" parts of the world. If, however, you want better for yourself and, particularly, for your children then you should move to where the opportunities are better and more choices are on offer.

Definitely, it is wrong to drum into children that "this life is good enough for me so it is good enough for you". If that attitude had prevailed long, long, ago we would still be living in caves.
 
To me monetary things mean sweet f.a. When i was younger and lived with my children i thought differently. They deserve the best you can give them.

Though now days i would rather be happy then worry about what i have or don't have.
I would rather live out on a farm house etc then to have to struggle to make ends meet living in the city.

I used to work and make around $1700 on average, not allot of money but i found the more money i had the more i spent. So now having to live on a disabled pension i find it a little hard but i get by.
Two thirds of that money goes on rent so when you have to get by on very little you can adapt.
Though i have to miss out on allot of things that i was done. So i believe you can be poor and still get by in this country and still find happiness if you find a person who doesn't have money as the means to everything.

That i find a little hard as most woman like to have money. Not all so i am not having ago at women. Just a comment.
Happiness is the best thing in life and it's free, you just need to find that right person and that's one thing money can't buy is true happiness.
I think i got out what i was trying to say.
 
Australia offers a lot having lived Portugal, Spain and travelled to many parts of europe, the opportunities are vast in Australia having spent a few years travelling to and from.
 
Depends on the reason. Anyone can be struck down by a physical illness or mental illness that will have a drastic effect on their income potential.

If there's no mitigating factors hindering someone, then yes they have themselves to blame. Even when employment prospects are fewer I've never found myself short of a buck, always thought up other ways to create an income flow through business means and if I've needed a job I've networked enough to always have references that stand me in good stead.
 
Some excellent discussion!

This topic was inspired by a friend commenting that I shouldnt give to beggars or charities, as the recipients deserve their circumstances :)
 
Only now after 34 years of marriage we now have money. Before we learnt to enjoy the joys of the beautiful things that are free. Yes the sunrise, and the opening of flowers brought us much peace.

We decided to have my wife stay home with the children and even though we struggled with the house payments in buying our house the experience enriched our lives.

Sure money is important but there are more important things in life that can reward us if we only stop and open our senses.
:walk:
 
The ammount of money given out through centrelink is crazy.

Most "poor people" reciev over 35 grank a year and piss it awya gambling and drinking.

What would aid against poverty? Food stamps and regulation.

Sadly people aren't adult enough to manage their own money.

Btw, sorry bout spelling mistakes and poor grammar, I was slamming it out quick at work.
 
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I know people who earn more than two hundred thousand dollars a year and they are hopeless with their money. However because they have so much they still manage to have enough to eat and pay the bills.

I believe some of the best money managers are those who have very little. If not they would starve death.
:walk:
 
I disagree.
Having worked over sea's for 8 years, some of these people have no choice.

Yes it would be eaier to go where their is opportunity, however, how do you fund this move if there is no money to start with?
Its a lose lose at times.

Having said that, it depends what country/area you are talking about.
 
Agree with curious i also worked overseas, have met and seen both people overseas and local that cant without aid/resources change their life circumstances unto which they have been dealt, at least over any short amount of time. Yet some people i,ve met that have had great opportunities to move on/up have well not done so out fear or uncertanty, willingness to take a risk?
 
My life would be a hell of a lot different if I hadnt entered the sex industry.
Yet I know many starving students who wouldnt even consider this as a job, even if it were the difference between starving and living a comfortable life.
 
Yes its a personal choice, but Id chose this life (dancing and massage) over starving and being poor (which I have been in the past) any day.
Sure its 'noble' to have morals etc, but if you dont re-evaluate your decisions to match your circumstances, then poverty is a choice.
 
Ok i see what your saying.
However to start life on that pathway costs. (im not greatly experinced in your industry so i dont have numbers haha) but you would need clothes/outfits, make ups, hygenie products and what ever you require which costs. How do you get that if you are already at poverty?
Im sure if some girl who was living poverty walked off the street and asked you for a job you would probably decline her.

And what about places that dont have your industry. 8 years working in Afghan and Iraq i didnt see one place that caters to your industry hahaha
 
Curious1 said:
Ok i see what your saying.
However to start life on that pathway costs. (im not greatly experinced in your industry so i dont have numbers haha) but you would need clothes/outfits, make ups, hygenie products and what ever you require which costs. How do you get that if you are already at poverty?
Im sure if some girl who was living poverty walked off the street and asked you for a job you would probably decline her.

And what about places that dont have your industry. 8 years working in Afghan and Iraq i didnt see one place that caters to your industry hahaha
Click to expand...

Youre joking right? The sex industry in the middle east is HUGE, according to the advocacy organisations I have worked for worldwide.
EDIT just google "sex industry middle east" for a gazillion articles, with some peer reviewed journal articles there also.

As a streetwalker, providing sexual services, no outfit/shoes/room costs are involved (however it is a VERY risky occupation) and the cash could be used to cover outlay costs.

And we HAVE hired homeless girls before, I can think of a few over the years who were allowed to sleep in the dressing room, and were given outfits/shoes from the 'unclaimed' box, or (in the case of Club X) allowed to have thier outfit up front, and pay for it either after their shift, or the next shift, with a nice manager. There are shower facilities, and its not that hard to make enough money to get a few items, to earn more money.
In fact the sex industry is FAR easier to enter, than a regular job, or even welfare payments, which require a permanant address as basic, and then references etc...
 
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I can assure you that in the lowest places of the middle east that i work in there is no sex industry....they are the areas where poverty is hit hardest mainly due to conflicts around them.

Maybe i am wrong about getting in to the sex industry. You raised some valid points that i did not know.....i did say i didnt know much about your industry so now, i accept that i was wrong about it.
 
I have to say that the statement "poor people have themselves to blame" is irrational to the point of being absurd. There is no legitimate way anyone can make such a blantantly false statement.

As an astute thinker, I am sad anyone can have such a poor mind that they could spout such garbage.

There is absolutely no legitimate obligation for any individual to attempt to make money. Also, there is absolutely no way that anyone can legitimately make a statement that a poor individual is "to blame" for being poor. It is impossible for anyone to judge another person, let alone determine if they are "at blame" for thier predicament. The whole concept of blame is acutally false, and is used as a malevolent social control system by leaders who have failed thier citizens.

The idea of "choice" is also completely flawed in philosophical principal. It does not stand to my superior rational analysis. You may be able to choose BETWEEN options (and I mean may), but you certainly cannot choose what those choices are.

To sum it up, there is absolutely no proof or strong rational argument that suggests that poor people are "to blame" for being poor. That is what a corrupt government would LOVE us to think.
 
I guess we all are very lucky that we as adults didn't have to live thru the depression this country did have.

Yeah i was a kid at the time but my mother got us by.
Though her parents were the one's that know what the meaning of poor really meant.

So yes we are very lucky that we have centrelink and veterans affair.
Allot of elderly people rely on that money and they deserve every cent.So pissing it up the wall is a fucking insult to those older people in our community.

Yes there are people that do, but those who do wouldn't have to support themselves, there's a big difference.

Most people that support themselves and there families would rather be in a position to do so,but in some cases there comes a time when you can't.
So if you worked for forty plus years and pay your taxes one would expect a helping hand from this government in this day and age.

Also where do you get 35k from, try somewhere in the vicinity of 15to16k for a single pensioner and then take 11k for rent then you might know what you are talking about.

There would be a small percentage of people that have themselves to blame for being poor. BTW i am only talking about Australia.
 
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Svengali : "Whoever you are and wherever you live it is your own responsibility to look out for yourself and your family the best way you can."

I presume, based on the context of this thread, you are referring to "looking out" for yourself fianancially.

Exactly how do you arrive at this conclusion? Logical analysis, guesswork, an internet IMAO?

Perhaps it is convienent for society to place "personal responsibility" (i.e. blame) on it's citizens, so to deflect responsibility from itself.

"You give but little when you give of your possessions.
It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. " Kahlil Gibran, from "The Prophet"
Do too much of that....and you won't be looking out for yourself either.
 
I LUV a Rub said:
Svengali : "Whoever you are and wherever you live it is your own responsibility to look out for yourself and your family the best way you can."

I presume, based on the context of this thread, you are referring to "looking out" for yourself fianancially.

Exactly how do you arrive at this conclusion? Logical analysis, guesswork, an internet IMAO?

Perhaps it is convienent for society to place "personal responsibility" (i.e. blame) on it's citizens, so to deflect responsibility from itself.

"You give but little when you give of your possessions.
It is when you give of yourself that you truly give. " Kahlil Gibran, from "The Prophet"
Do too much of that....and you won't be looking out for yourself either.
Click to expand...



Hi there I love A rub.

I thought my statement was a self-evident truth.

It is vital to separate the duties of Society from those of the individual.

A society exists so that its members can pool their talents and use their country's natural resources and their own skills and resources to build something far greater than they could achieve individually. This means Government and the rule of law are necessary so that everyone knows where they stand.

Individually, we each have a responsibility to use our talents and skills to provide for ourselves and our families as best we can. Society should and does provide opportunities for people to get ahead and improve their lot but it is up to the individual to grasp those opportunites.

There is no shame in poverty, only in giving up and accepting it as one's lot and not trying to get ahead.

By the way, the full text of Kahlil Gibran's chapter on giving and charity is here: Kahlil Gibran Chap.05 You may find some worthwhile insights there.
 
every individual had the mentality of sharing, there would never be any poor people in this world. Many of us are selfish.
 
Hi everyone,

I thought I might make this a short one, then one paragraph in realised, that just wasn't gonna happen. Grab a coffee, here I go.

I love a Rub I have read quite a few of your posts on this and other topics, and I can see the perspective you are approaching life from. However, I see some gaping flaws in your self-professed "superior rational analysis". Firstly, rational analysis is just thinking. So your statement actually says "superior thinking". I kinda think that's a big grab. Your way of thinking may be more complex than another's, perhaps your thinking powers along very quickly, where another's may take longer. However to say superior is a judgement based statement and you also stated "it is impossible for anyone to judge another person". Yet judgement of another person doesn't begin with thinking they are wrong. It can begin with thinking you are "superior", it's kind of like saying "i don't judge you for being a moron".

So putting aside the superior idea of your thinking, let's just look at the bones of it. A "society" is quite simply a group of people living in an organised fashion for the benefit of all members of that society. You can nitpick and argue semantics over it, but that's still the gist of a society. Now it could be 5 people living in a tree on the edge of the Congo, or it could be the entire population of the earth and the larger questions facing everyone. But a society is still just a group of people, it isn't a separate, stand alone, tangible thing that can be either thanked or blamed or made "responsible". Those concepts must be inherently held at an individual level. Society is not government. Government may be a production of a society, but they aren't the same thing.

Governments and politics are always going to have an element of corruption attached to them. You have all heard the saying "power corrupts, absolute power corrupts absolutely". That's the challenge isn't it. We are all flawed human beings. We all make mistakes, we may start a journey with one intent and end up somewhere completely different. But even in countries where democracy (not perfect) does not exist, we have seen in recent times the ability of people power. The individuals band together and often in the face of extreme adversity they put their very lives at risk to lobby for change from their leaders. So societies are shaped by the individual human beings that create them. Therefore, it brings us to the question of personal responsibility.

As my frame of reference is small in regard to other nations, my next comments relate to life in Australia, based on our "society".

The topic of this thread is "poor people only have themselves to blame". What are we blaming them for again? Are we blaming them because their bank balance is low, or because their car is 20 years old, or because they live in a suburb we never would, or are we blaming them because they live on the street? None of these things are reasons to blame them. I am not rich, far from it. I went to the supermarket this morning and three items came to $10.03. I had precisely $10 in my purse, and had to run out to the car to find a five cent piece, which I located. I have zero dollars now and no clients until Thursday, but I get staying at home allowance from Centrelink, that will be there Wednesday, I can live out of the cupboard til then. Now, I could easily go and get a job in the corporate world, put in the long hours, become focussed on that, climb the corporate ladder (I've done it before), and then I imagine when I go to the supermarket I wouldn't have to worry about adding it up as I go, because there'd be tons of money in the bank to pay for it. Would I be happier? Is there something to blame me for because I have NO money in my purse right now.

But, if I were complaining about having no money in my purse, now that's something different. Oh, I've got no money. I can't make a phone call because I can't buy anymore credit til Wednesday. The fuel light in my car is on, I can't even go and visit a friend, boo hoo I'm so poor, I'm so lonely, help me help me. Now there's something to blame. I can change my situation, I just don't want to at the moment. So can the homeless person, so can the single mum, so can the laid off mine worker and his family when they have to live in a one bedroom flat with three kids because their house got repossessed.

Remember too, change takes time and perseverence.

See, my personal philosophy is that we create our own realities, and even the extremely unfortunate random events it doesn't appear we could possibly have had any control over, we can still rise above. We do always have choices, and the previous comment

"The idea of "choice" is also completely flawed in philosophical principal. It does not stand to my superior rational analysis. You may be able to choose BETWEEN options (and I mean may), but you certainly cannot choose what those choices are."

I disagree. We always have almost limitless choices, what we do not control are the consequences of those choices. So when someone says they have no choices, what they mean is there aren't any choices for them that they like the consequences of that choice. Oh well.

I was teaching my 3 year old this morning, that if she won't let me take her night nappy off and put on her pants and get dressed for the day, that's cool. She'll want me to do it eventually because she'll be uncomfortable and that will be more important than rebelling against her Mum. But the consequence of not letting me take her nappy off are that I'm not going to start the DVD player up and put on her Disney DVD. Choices, consequences.

The aforementioned career or job that I don't have at the moment. Choice. I don't want to work so many hours that I have no time left to blow bubbles with my baby, I don't want to work so many hours that I feel guilty if I sit down for a smoke and a sudoku. So therefore I choose to work my little cottage industry, just two days a week from home, and allow my concentration to be on my family. There is no judgement attached to other families who do it differently, just that this is where I am right now.

If you don't like sleeping under a tree, then don't. You don't have to, there are options and choices. Yes, they might mean a little less alcohol or gambling, or perhaps following house rules, or some other "nuisance" thing you don't have to put up with when you live free on the streets, but like the nappy/dvd situation, it's all a trade off.

The things to blame are when you see a family on Today/Tonight and they are bleating about how bad things are for them this year and they don't even have money to buy little johnny a xmas present. But in the corner there's an empty cardboard carton of Emu Export, and an overflowing ashtray on the table. School shoes, OMG we can't possibly afford them, pass us the bong honey.

At my supermarket at xmas time, they get the most amazing toys in. Things with lights and bells and whistles or dolls with multiple outfits and accessories, and many of these very very large boxes come with price tags of $8, $9, $12 etc. One packet of cigarettes nowadays is around $12. So what do you reckon poor people, if you smoke, how about skipping 25 of them for a xmas present. I know not everyone smokes, it's an analogy. Buy the paper every day? There's over $10 per week, how about magazines, how about non-essential, non-nutritious food choices? I'm not saying I never do any of these things, but if I needed shoes for my kid, I wouldn't buy the Woman's Weekly. Choices choices choices.

In this country we have government funded payments (we can argue the merits of those in another post), welfare organisations (Red Cross, St Vinnies, Salvos et al) that give food parcels etc, clinics providing health care, free counselling services, financial counselling services that will help you work your shit out, facilities and resources coming out of our ears (I'm sure however that somone is going to point out the glaring hole that exists making it clearly impossible for them not to be complete victims). There is no need for any individual in this country to not have the basics of food, shelter and clothing. I do not blame naked, hungry, homeless bloke, but I'm not going to give him clothes, food or a home. I don''t laugh at him, if he sits next to me at the bus stop, I'm happy to have a chat, he may even have some really interesting stuff to talk about, (after all he's naked, hungry and homeless, it's gotta change your perspective). If he's happy being that way, good luck. If he's not, fair enough, what are you going to do about it.

Ok, gotta stop now, so many other thoughts, but they are kinda off topic. Might make a new thread and see who wants to talk about shit.

Love
swingingstories

PS: The choices and consequences thing works, the night nappy is off, the DVD is on.
 
Nice to read your thoughts SwingStories, There is alot of common sense in there.
Then i always like to read the things you contribute to this forum..
 
Thanks <blush>

OMG, that's a first. I just tried to send the top line and was told my message was too short. Me, didn't say enough. LOL

 
Yeah you gotta have a few words. Though seriously i have always found that you always put much thought into what you say and you very level minded.

I don't know if that is the right word(level) but i think you would know what i am trying to say..

No need to blush you deserve credit and it would be good if more people got involved the way you do whenever you contribute.;D
 
Hi Happytimes,

I was trying to work out earlier if I have met you, but I'm not sure. However your post suggesting that I have a level mind is terribly funny.

Truthfully, I think I am always just a sprinkle this side of insane, and today, only a hair away. When I have too much in my head, I just jump on the forum and find a topic that interests me. I thank this forum for helping to keep me just sane enough to continue functioning.

Love
swingingstories
 
Hi SwingingStories, No i don't think we have ever met and i'm glad you seen the lite side of what i was saying (as in level).

I just couldn't grasp the word i was looking for. As for being sane i am very much on your side of the fence, i hope:laughing4.

Though as i said your contribution always makes for a good read and i am much wiser for some of your reply's.. That i thank you for..;D
 
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